This does make things clearer (to my poor befuddled brain, at least!).
The only hard information I have, specific to Herbert Dallas, is that (a) he arrived in Thailand in the latter half of March, 1943, (b) that he was at one point based at Hintok Mountain Camp, (c) that he worked at both Kanu and Hintok, and (d) that he died at Tarsao on 2/11/1943. Applying Occam's Razor to the list of camps you have provided, it would appear that he went straight up the line as far as Kanu (150km) on his arrival in Thailand, went from there to Hintok (156km) at some point between May and July, 1943, remained at Hintok until after the completion of the Railway, when he marched back to Tonomang (137km), was transferred to the adjacent camp at Tarsao (130km), and subsequently died. Do you agree that this is the most likely scenario? If so, the only questions outstanding are minor: "In which month, precisely, did he move from Kanu to Hintok?" and, "Why did he move from Tonomang to Tarsao?" The former is somewhat irrelevant. As for the latter, was there perhaps a major medical facility at Tarsao, which took in the sick
from nearby camps?
There seem to be two options. The first is that those who were based at Hintok (and Rintin and, the following month, Krian Krai) were split into two groups on the completion of the Railway; the fitter men being concentrated at Kinsayok (perhaps to be sent out in small work parties to nearby stretches of the line which required maintenance), and the weaker returning to Tonomang. Alternatively, all those at Hintok and Rintin were marched down the line to Tonomang, and all those at Krian Krai were marched down the line to Kinsayok. Whichever option is correct, it seems clear that IV Group did not work on the construction of the Kinsayok section, and only arrived there after its completion.
My gut feeling is that the Japanese probably intended to withdraw all the POWs back to Singapore, leaving maintenance concerns to their Railway Regiments. If so, the presence of members of IV Group at Tonomang and Kinsayok for several months from the end of 1943 would signify nothing more than that these camps were being used for incarceration of POWs, pending their return to Singapore (or their transfer to work camps elsewhere, such as Japan itself). What do contemporary records say about the tasks required of POWs in Burma and Thailand after the Railway was completed? Were POWs involved in track maintenance, or were they no longer required to work?
Once again, I must thank you for all your help, and for your generosity in sharing your considerable expertise. I am deeply in your debt. If you ever need to know anything about British military history of the Victorian era, please do not hesitate to ask!
Janet - >Mike, I find this really hard to believe and take in but my Dad was obessed about peoples height or his lack of it, and he was always on about the 6ft 2 ins Aussie ! ( though you say your cousin was 6ft 3ins I guess when your'e only just 5ft 2, and with years passing he might have shrunk him to 6ft 2 ! )
Even my husband knows that story, as my Dad was taken with the fact when he first met my now husband that he was 6ft 2ins tall, and evidentally used to say to my brother " If I had lost my legs like a couple of the guys did with ulcers I was gonna make sure when I got back that they made me new ones so I was 6ft 2ins"
In my old chaps eyes no one was ever bigger than the 6ft 2 Aussie and he spoke alot about him, but it seems so unreal !
He also told me that this bloke was the smartest soldier he had ever seen - not sure wether he meant stature or brain power, and this bloke was quite a handsome devil !
My I think his mates were just p*ssed off big time that he was seen to be collaborating with the enemy.
Dad always said that once the Japanese surrendered food was fine and albeit the same stuff ( Rice and Marrow type veg ) but he always insisted there was plenty to go around and they could eat as much as the wanted ?- now wether that's strictly true or if it's a case that the Japs had been stricter in portion control ( pardon that expression it sounds irreverant but it's not meant to be ) which was suddenly lifted I don't really know.
I know he was accused of helping the enemy and he did say that his justification was that the engineer was never really the enemy just a bloke much like themselves who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but however I do know he wouldn't have given b*ggar all to most of them !
As a matter of interest that engineer was the one who having worked with them on the sheer face at Wampo, had a remit to be at such and such a point on a particular date and a party who were working from the other direction , had to meet up with them.
I am not sure where exactly this was but I have always imagined it to be where the sheer face bends around and you cannot see one side from the other.
Dads lot had finished their remit a couple of days early and the engineer found a place where they could not be seen from and rested them up for nearly the whole couple of days as they were truely exhauted. I am not sure what time of year this was but Dad said it was hot .
He respected that man alot.
He also told the story of the Cholera outbreak , where the Japs would do their rounds and see who was dead and alive, an Indian as he described him ( maybe a Tamil perhaps ) was VERY ill but as the Japs walked up to him he tried to sit up and said " No Cholera SAAB ", my Dad always grieved for that man cos the Korean guard clubbed him about the head and killed him, he was in the next bed in the hut to the old chap and dispite all the things they all saw that used to upset him to the last.
Well Mike I must go, I have just got in from work and have to go out and do some of my own Christmas food shopping, I see people buying so much and think of the years that they all went without so much, it makes me emmotional so I try not to do so much that I waste any , but there we are, my Dad always said " I didn't mind doing what I did one bit, just so long as your kids never have to do it, I will be satisfied ", he was a good man bless him, he had a parculiar sense of humour, which I myself have got and if people asked him what he did in the war he used to say " I was involved in the construction industry " which really used to annoy my Mother - perhaps that's why he did it even more !!
Mike - >Janet, I have Herbert's enlistment papers, which come complete with a
photograph showing him up against a height scale. On careful
re-measuring, I see that the very top of his spiked hair checks in at
just under six feet, two and a half inches. Six foot two is spot on!
I wonder whether your Dad's Aussie really could have been my cousin?
If your Dad singled this one man out particularly, then we must assume
that there can't have been numerous six-foot-two-inch Aussies with him.
Did he ever mention his name? Or that he was born in Norfolk? Or that he drove a tractor for a living before the war? Or whether he died at Tarsao?
A "smart soldier" is normally one who is well turned-out, who holds himself well ("head back, stomach in, chest out, thumbs in line with the seams of your trousers, you 'orrible little man!"), and who is highly competent at drill - but I can't see that these qualities would have been particularly apparent on the Railway! I can imagine that Herbert might have made a good soldier, though. The vast majority of the men
in my family over the past 400 years have been in the forces, many being decorated for bravery, and some achieving General rank. Genetics will out...
Well, I wouldn't say that 'Erbert was 'andsome. His face was pleasant
enough, but he had ears like jug handles! I don't know whether this
list accepts attachments, but if it does, you can see what I mean below:
(On second thoughts, I'll copy this message to your e-mail addy, then you'll be sure to see the pic).
I have certainly read that immediately after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, vast quantities of food were made available by the Japanese to their prisoners, as were medical supplies.
That I can understand.
Why a Tamil? More likely a Sikh of the Indian Army, I would have thought. There were almost as many Indian troops in Malaya/Singapore when they fell as there were British.
"Sahib" - Urdu for "Sir" or "Master".
ROFL!
Mike - >Janet Uhr, I've just realised why your name looked familiar - a correspondent on the OMRS mailing list recommended your 1998 book, "The AIF in Malaya, 1941-42" as the best possible secondary source on the subject. Is this still in print, and can I order a new copy from my local bookshop in UK, or will I need to find a second-hand copy in Australia?
Janet Uhr - Yes, that's the one: in front of the club. Re the reprinting, Di Elliott is handling that and would be the best person to ask: occasionally you find a copy s/hand; but not often: perhaps you could kangaroo through abebooks listings?
Janet Uhr - >Mike: Thank you for what you write about Against the Sun; the AIF in Malaya, 1941-1942. I think it may be out of print, but the publishers Allen and Unwin should know; and Select Books in Singapore had a copy listed the other day: their web page is www.selectbooks.com.sg - or abebooks again - there were a few s/hand copies around a little while ago.
Go well, Janet
Mike - >Janet Uhr, I ordered the copy from Select Books, but they have just e-mailed to tell me that their website is out-of-date and that they have no further copies. I can't find one on ABE either. :-( If you happen across a spare copy anywhere, please let me know.
Ron - >Mike, Although Tarsao is not mentioned, it was Group IV headquarters at 130km.
The prisoners never saw the place names written down and spelt the names as they pronounced them. My father being a Norfolk man had some peculiar spellings of the names, there were many different dialects so the places had many different spellings. Tonchan is also Tonomang or Tongnang at 137km, which as you can see is very close to the headquarters at Tarsao (130km).
I have altered the table to Tonchan as that is the name wildly used, this will helpfully make it easier.
There was a hospital at Kanchanburi (50km) which are very close to Tamuang (34km) & Kaorin (42km) this points towards the group receiving medical attention and treatment there.
Tarsau also had a large hospital so the stay at Tonchan could also be for medical attention.
Railway of Death by John Coast covers a party that left in October 1942, but mentions most of the camps used by "D" Force and Group IV.
Be careful though as Coast did not use the original names of the prisoners, his reason for this was to give them peace when they arrived home, the book was written in 1947. Many wished he had now but you can understand his thoughts.
It is a book that I have warn out, will have to get it recovered, it is also the only book my father said was true to real life on the railway.
If you get the book look from Page 94 onwards.
This is parts taken from this part.
"Tarsau was now full of new arrivals from our Division, ....... Tarsau camp was an enormous place built under a collection of huge trees and intersected by rutted roads full of Nip transport. The atapi huts were of the low type, but divided into cubicles."
He goes on to say that the low doors of about 5ft 4inch suggesting they were built by the Japanese or under their instructions. Above Tarsau was jungle, this was about the end of April 1943.
They then marched onto Kanu, a journey of 16km. An area of Tents in a field of Lalang grass, two Div. H.Q Majors had been left here to build a hospital.
On the 9th May they arrived at Hintok, known as the "Mountain Camp", this was purely an Australian Camp, surrounded by a bamboo palisade as protection as against wild animals. Several things were unusual about Hintok, the latrines had been made of wood, very clean and about 16ft deep. There was a complete water system made out of hollow bamboo pipes with showers all entirely from bamboo, all was all built by the Australians.
The next port of call was Kinsayok which was a big camp, the journey was very mountainous and dangerous, this was near the boundary of Group IV. Barges traded on the river near the camp. The worst thing was the stinking old huts with big bed bugs.
They then travelled to Rintin, the last camp in Group IV, this had been a plague spot and was now used only as a staging post.
Enclosed entirely by huge trees with some Dutch cooks there only living in one hut, there were three huts there. A tale of 231 dying in ten weeks made us want to move on quickly.
End of parts from John Coast.
Food was sparse in Singapore by the time the railway was finished, it would not be in the Japs interest not to get them back quickly to Singapore unless they were shipping them out quickly. Also the Allies were bombing the railway, stopping supplies reaching Burma, alot of maintenance work was required and the prisoners would be used for this.
Hope this helps, will get back to it after Christmas, please feel free to add anything to this.
Mike - >Ron, I think this must be the case. Janet Jacobs mentions that her father and my cousin were at Tarsao on 4th October, 1943, when another friend of her father, "Lloydy" by name, died. This implies that some serious medical cases, at least, were evacuated to Tarsao for treatment, rather than arriving there on their way back to Singapore. I haven't come across the concept of the Japanese evacuating sick POWs from work camps to hospital camps before. Is this known to have happened?
Indeed. I wonder if anyone will ever be able to work out the real names of those he mentions? Co-incidentally, I have just completed such an exercise with a memoir of the Crimean War written by a young naval officer. He even changed the name of his ship (from "Albion" to "Anglia"), but in many cases, the pseudonyms he chose to use were punning versions of the real names ("Lt. Race" for "Lt. Chase" and so on), and it has proven possible to identify others by, for example, their dates of arrival or departure on board, using the original ship's musters.
It seems, from Braddon's book, that the POWs in his group were sent back down the line by *train*, stopping from time to time to bury the dead, and eventually ending up back in Singapore. As far as food and drugs in Singapore are concerned, he wrote, "[on 18th August, 1945]... The food which they [the Japanese] had recently declared to be non-existent, they now produced in vast quantities so that we might eat our fill. Likewise drugs appeared from everywhere, and in profusion."
Janet - >Ron, Re the local dialects and different spellings I can confirm that my Dad
called Kanchanaburi " Kan-Bury ", he called the Japanese police the " Kam-Pie " but I believe it's more like Kam-pu-tie or simialr,. pronounced Tarsoa " Tar-So", I definately know he called Pratchia " Pratchy " and Chungkai = Chun-key.
He used to describe one job when they were in Burma ( I gather it was a long way away from the railway ) as "over the other side of the second river " - God only knows where he was or what he meant by that.
Can anyone shed any light on what they would have been working on at near the Three Pagodas Pass ? I never did think to ask him, but he does describe it as spectacular to my Mum in a letter written on his way home.
Nearly all his stories were from the railway, I guess this is where most of his mates were lost but alot of stories from Singapore, he went to Sumatra but never said a great deal about that , I seem to think they were laying more railway or airfields but I can't remember now what he said. I'm not sure which way round he told this so it's either " the job was easier than the Burma-Siam Railway but the weather was AWFULL or the other way around, and I think it was on that boat during that trip that he saw the flying fish and electic storms. I will ask my aunt when I next email her and see if she can remember, as she was his beloved baby sister and he told her many things.
Ron - >Janet, The electric storms were on the way home, my dad sat for ages watching "great lights in the sky" on the way home aboard the "Chitral", on deck, alone, writing his dairy, funny how stories fall into place isn't it. My dad went to French Indo China after the railway, he told me about the troubles after the Japanese surrender, the French were being tracked down by the natives, Vietnamese, and being killed. He hated talking about it because it wasn't just the men being killed.
On a lighter note he did say about the races, with a prisoner as the jockey and a larger one as the horse, Jack from "Hell in Five" confirmed this. They bet rations on the outcome.
Janet - >Ron, So the electric storms were on the way home, I wonder if they're to do with the time of year perhaps do you think ?
Ron did your Dad ever say about the Flying Fish ?, also do you remember on that first letter from Pratchia he said he had seen sunsets to " Out - Turner" Turner, I believe they were at sea.
I know he thought that the Indian Ocean islands were very beautifull ( I think I have read it was the Maldives, but they did call in at Columbo on the way home too so it could be there - he had a soft spot for Ceylon as he said the natives were so lovely as the ship went into port and docked they were met by lovely workers and their families all waving ) but he said the most beautifull place he had ever seen since leaving home were the " Green Islands " of Trinidad in S. America, people often refer to Trinidad and Toabago as the West Indies, but he was actually correct that they are a long way off the West Indies and actually just in the Atlantic Ocean not in the Carribean Sea.
He also had a very, very soft spot for the city of Liverpool as the reception the Orduna got there was very good, a flotilla of little boats and some bigger boats ( I imagine may be the Mersey ferries during their course of crossings - I don't know that they would have been allowed to make a special trip or anything ) out to meet them and escorting them home ,sounding their horns and people on the decks waving and on the quay side the dockers and the little local kids were there, I'm not sure if there were hundreds but I guess it seemed like it to him, he was very impressed by it and touched, there were also guys from the forces there helping them carry their kit, I think my Dad refused any help when a bloke then said words to the effect "Don't be silly short ar*e, the kit bag's as big as you" ! Dad always thought that was funny and I think he then accepted his help, I think alot of those chaps had been POW's in Europe or something.
Well Ron another Christmas is upon us, another year gone, what more can I say ? I must count my blessings for sure, just like Dad always did.
Ron - >Janet, Dad did say he sat watching the fish dance in the water, it could have been flying fish or dolphins.
The picture you have painted of Liverpool and the greeting they received is brilliant.
For the 18th Division it was their first view of "Blighty" in about four years to the day, it was alot longer for others.
My father landed at Southampton and he said there were not many dry eyes, the first thing he did was go down on his knees to kiss the ground, vowing he would not leave the shores of "Blighty" again and he never did.
God bless them and the mates they left behind
Janet - >Ron, like your Dad kissing the ground my Dad vowed as he left the gangplank at Liverpool he wouldn't go abroad again, but at you know he broke that promise aged 78 to go and try to find his mates graves at Kanchanaburi and Chunkai.
He did say that he would have liked to have gone to Oz and he and a mate at Tarso ( a 6ft 2" Aussie " Digger" ) had a notion of getting together after the war and buying a farm between them, now wether that was real intension or a bit of pipe dreams, I'm not 100% sure, but my Dad would have liked to have gone farming for sure seeing as he came from a farming family, but the guy died so nothing came of that.
He also told my Mum had he have been single he would have stayed in the Army and tried to go back to Burma/India/Malaysia I think he thought they had good postings out there or something.
Mike had a cousin Herbert who he is trying to find out about, it's rather uncanny but my Dad always said " Digger" was 6ft 2", Mike thought his cousin was 6' 3" but after carefull checking he was actually 6' 2" - Digger died just after Lloydy at Tarso of dysentry, Herbert, Mike's cousin died too at the same time and it seems that it could be the same Aussie, but I find it almost too remarkable to think about, it's rather awesome !
Janet - >Ron, just reading your email again, My dad had heard that there was trouble in French Indo China, sounds horrible poor devils, I guess perhaps he heard that en-route to L'Pool.
Have just put on a years worth of calories, how lucky I am to be able to do thateh, I hope it makes trying to loose it next year a pleasure !
Ron - >Janet, Yes, in French Indo China the Vietnamese didn't want the French back. After the Japanese surrender the prisoners were allowed out of camp until the Vietnamese went looking for the French, whole families of French were being attacked, the Vietnamese used sharpened bamboo as weapons .
The prisoners were then confined to the camp.
The Far East in general had a very unsettled time after the war, they didn't want the old rule back and who can blame them.
Mike - >Janet, The coincidences (if such they are - which I doubt) are:
|
Janet's "Digger”
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My cousin
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Australian Soldier
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L/Cpl, 2/19 Bn., AIF
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6' 2" tall
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6' 2" tall
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Farmer
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"Tractor Driver" on enlistment papers
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Dysentery sufferer at Tarsao
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Dysentery sufferer at Tarsao
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Died at Tarsao Oct/Nov '43
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Died at Tarsao, 2nd November, 1943
|
I don't know how many Australians died of dysentery at Tarsao during October and November, 1943, but even if the number is in the hundreds, Janet's father apparently always spoke of his particular "Digger" as being extraordinarily tall at 6' 2", and so I suspect that there can only have been one man who fits the bill - my cousin, Herbert Dallas.
Please find enclosed the photograph, taken on enlistment, of my cousin, NX35842 Lance Corporal Herbert Frederick Dallas, 2/19th Bn., AIF:
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Name
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DALLAS, HERBERT FREDERICK
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Service
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Australian Army
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Service Number
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NX35842
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Date of Birth
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12 Nov 1910
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Place of Birth
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NORWICH, ENGLAND
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Date of Enlistment
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27 Jun 1940
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Place of Enlistment
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WAGGA WAGGA, NSW
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Next of Kin
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GREAVES, ARTHUR
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Date of Death
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2 Nov 1943
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Rank
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Lance Corporal
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Posting on Death
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2/19 Australian Infantry Battalion
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Prisoner of War
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Yes
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Roll of Honour
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NOOJEE VIC
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Information from: AMF Prisoners of War and Missing in the Far East and South West Pacific Islands Database - www.awm.gov.au/database/awm232.asp
Mike - >Janet Uhr. The last time I checked ABE there was nothing, but I'll keep trying. I'll also drop Di a line, and ask her about any plans for reprinting this.
Ron - >Mike, Did try to catch up with sleep but nigh impossible with my youngest arround, he's twelve and got some warhammers for Christmas, wants them assembled and painted now.
Yes please to the picture of your cousin, although the Fepow Group does have a picture input folder, send it to me direct at Ron.Taylor@fepow-community.org.uk and I'll add it to the site.
With limited food at the camps and "Speedo", the Japanese seemed to think food was fuel for a machine and they wanted an end result so they worked the sick as well, but the Japanese did also move sick about. My father did talk about train loads arriving back from up-country in a bad state passing through the camp he was in, on route for the hospital camps. The Japs were also really scared of cholera and the epademic of 1943, a commander in one camp had such a thing about the flies, he put a bounty on their heads, the men caught them in reward for their food. My father did say that not all the men they put on the cholera fires were dead, but he could have mistaken this for the tendens tightening in the heat, as many have said the corpses sat up in the flames.
John Coast writes much about the brutality in camp 206 during 'Speedo', but also says:
"We started off at changkuling out of the sodden ground next to a party of medical Nips who were out for a couple of hours; and we went on till lunch time, came out again afterwards, and worked till seven o'clock. The old 'gunso' used to blink his eyes occassionally, and we sometimes left earlier, In the bad days that particular gunso was known as Father Christmas, because he used to go up and down the line every few days with a sack and distribute "Tojo Presentos" to the working troops - packets of cigarettes. One of the Nip guards, though, said that the gunso paid for the
cigarettes himself."
He goes on:
"Also after weeks and weeks of delay, they were at last to evacuate the heavy sick by barge to Chungkai. Scores of men unable to stand, naked and dirty were dragged in the drizzle down the river and put in barges. The very fact that they were going DOWN put life into those weakly beating hearts. The journey took about three days. In the course of the next few weeks thousands of them went down."
Hope this helps
Mike - >Ron, I don't know what a warhammer is (my eldest is six, which probably goes some way towards explaining that), but you should tell him that, at the age of twelve, he should be doing his own assembly and painting of models, and letting you get some sleep!
Fascinating - I genuinely had no idea that this happened.
But, but, flies don't transmit cholera! Ah, well...
Another decent Japanese. How comforting.
Very much - it makes sense of what had appeared to be conflicting data. Many thanks, once again.
Janet - >Arthur, I had to " smile " to myself at this note to Lillian, my old man reckoned Chungkai was a very good camp, although I think it may be here he had cholera ( ? ) , but he reckoned the grub was the best up the " whole of the Railway".
I guess I ought to say " his compliments to the cook " eh ?
I think it's maybe here he had a spell in the cookhouse. cooking DO-FORS ( do-for-anything - rice rissoles sorta things ) he reckoned there were about half a dozen Jacks in the cookhouse , he definately got a job slaughtering bullocks ( he was a butcher but moreover a class 1 slaughterman ), when they brought the first camp meat up after Col Lilly complained that they were malnourished.
The old chap always said " Col Lilly said to the Japaneseman BIGWIG on the horse, that the men were dying needlesly through malnutrition, the Japanese told him that wasn't his problem that his remit was to get the railway finished and he ( Col. Lilly ) replied that it was his problem cos if they all died their railway would never get finished at all !
He always attributed this period to aiding his survival, less physical work, the fact that you could get hold of more grub I suspect, although he never said that, but his big bit was to reduce the lumps of fat by simmering for ages in water and mix it in with the DO-FORS, he was quite well up on feeding farm stock and therefore realised that if you were short on nutrition that the high caloriic value of fat was really usefull, however even then many bokes hated the bits of fat & grissel they got, and didn't want to know !
Arthur - >Janet, Tell your old man. I was a Head night cook in the hospital ccokhouse at Chungkai during 1942 and up to June 1943. I was shunted out of the camp after I killed a guard, The Jap was buried down the latrine outside the dysentry ward. (This is gospel) when the war was over, colonel Strauss, who had been the senior doctor at the time. handed me the Japs dog tags and a couple of photographs which presumably were of the Japs wife or girl friend. I sent the dog tags to the Jap Army intelligence department Tokyo along with one of the photographs and a description where the Jap was buried I did not receive a reply.
The above is all recorded at IWM.
I was said to be suffering from the pressure of having watched as the three lads from the Northumberland fusiliers were executed.
I knew why, but allowed the quacks to think what they wanted.
I slept in G Hut, and was one of those who played shoeless football for
England against Scotland on Chungkai football ground in May 43 which was situated at the time between the hospital and G hut.
To possibly jog his memory I was the one with two large entwined snakes tatttoo'd on my back. Also in the cookhouse was Georgie Walker (York's lad) Taffy Hall (2 Norfolks Ex professional boxer) (Darkie Knights Norfolks) (Ken Neal Army catering corps) Danny Pine Army catering corps) both from London. Freddie Turner (118 Field regiment)
The Jap hated snakes and tattoo's/
